Hi friends! For this entry I'll be discussing "nice guys" and the friendzone (that "nice guys" always like to whine about) and why both of these concepts are inherently misogynistic and need to stop. Soon. Please.
So, what exactly is a "nice guy"? Below is a flowchart that explains the basic elements that make up a "nice guy". You don't have to actually take the test, just reading it will do. Apologies for the language, I found this on Tumblr, but that doesn't make it any less accurate!
Long story short, a "nice guy" isn't really a nice guy at all! In fact, a "nice guy" is nice until a woman refuses to date him for whatever reason. A "nice guy" will then develop a victim complex and find it appropriate to cut off the friendship with his lady friend and proceed to say something along the lines of "all women are stupid sluts that only date douchebags nice guys finish last my life is terrible because women aren't obligated to have sex with me wah" and other such sentiments.
The problem with "nice guys" is that these men have a sense of entitlement. They believe that they deserve to have whatever they want, especially women that are way out of their league. Women are objects that are meant to be chased. Women are a prize to be won. If that's not misogynistic (and utterly wrong and bordering on sociopathic), then I don't know what is!
See, here's the thing: girls are not machines that you put kindness coins into until sex falls out. Being nice to women does not obligate them to be romantically interested in you, as Morpheus up there explains. Rather than being nice because it's the right thing to do, "nice guys" are nice because they want to get laid. They have little to no interest in friendship, and rather than make that perfectly clear from the start, they decide to make themselves seem friendly and trustworthy (until the woman says no of course).
That's when they begin to shoot themselves in the foot. Even if the girl says "no", they will not take that for answer. They will persist, sometimes even for years, until the friendship is either ended or somebody gets hurt. Despite being rejected multiple times, a "nice guy" will just keep it up until he actually gets it, and will then make himself look like a helpless victim, like this guy here:
Also, note the caption. This guy is actually being supported, and this is why "nice guys" are a problem. It perpetuates the idea that men deserve some kind of reward for being decent human beings. Instead of being kind for the sake of being kind, men are kind to get in somebody's pants, and that's just not cool.
Seriously, when someone rejects you once, you move on. You don't keep trying until they say "yes" because they never will. I'll admit that everything Zoey did wasn't exactly a-okay, but whining about being rejected multiple times because you refuse to take a hint the first time just makes you look stupid. That's not very friendly, but it's honest, and these guys need a serious reality check.
Furthermore, when a guy is rejected, he may say that he has been "friendzoned". The friendzone itself isn't a bad thing. The friendzone just is. It's where you end up when you are rejected by someone you have romantic interest in on the basis that the other person would rather just stay friends. I've been friendzoned, you've been friendzoned, we've all been friendzoned!
However, the friendzone can be cumbersome when it's used in the context of "nice guys". They jump to the conclusion that the only reason the female wants to stay friends is because she's just a bitch and doesn't appreciate all the wonderful things he's done for her. Of course there are no other factors! This is the only explanation!
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| Again, sorry for the language! |
People who do this are assholes of the highest caliber and aren't worth my friendliness. They're hardly even worth my disdain. Girls get friendzoned all the time, and I have never seen such behaviour among them. I have never thought badly about someone I liked just because they wanted to stay friends, and that's because I don't see men as sexual objects/prizes/rewards that are my God-given right to have (can't say the same thing about the guys that like to think like mister man up there).
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| How guys should react when they get friendzoned |
Yes, being rejected sucks, but there's nothing you can do about it. You can't make someone choose to be attracted to you in a certain way. However, the way you respond is completely up to you. I'd suggest just moving on and lowering your standards a bit so they're a little more realistic attainable. The problem is that guys go after girls that are too good for them or too different from them, and then they end up digging their own graves using shovels made of inflated sense of entitlement.
There is a difference between being a "nice guy" and a "nice" guy, and I hope this blog helped you differentiate between the two! Have a great day, and remember to be genuinely nice to people. It can be pretty rewarding!
- Carli_V
P.S. if the language really bothers you, let me know and I'll edit it out!
Great post! The "nice guy" flow chart is actually pretty accurate. I think sometimes though, when a person gets rejected, it's difficult to give up hope that they will never actually "like" you. For some people, it's not about choosing to force the nice guy image down people's throats, maybe they just care for that individual and have faith that one day it might work, you know? But you're definitely right that getting rejected doesn't mean you get a free pass to call people names. Love the interesting topics so far!
ReplyDeleteGreat blog. It is much easier to blame others when one gets rejected, but I agree that blaming the rejectee(is that a word?) is completely wrong.
ReplyDeleteYour blog perfectly explains the whole "nice guy" problem. However, the "nice guy test" that you added at the top makes it seem like there is no way of anyone ever being considered a nice guy. Everyone has faults. That doesn't mean there isn't a genuine nice guy out there.
Also, the language doesn't bother me in the least. As long as it is used in proper context, I don't think anyone will mind.
I noticed that too with the "nice guy test". It's pretty black and white, but it's also from the social justice side of Tumblr, so that tends to happen. It's still useful in identifying who to avoid, though. Thank you for the feedback.
DeleteThis made me laugh. I like how you go through serious topic in a comical way. Personally I agree that guys do go after girls on a "different level" than them, I come from a Pakistani culture (Pakistan is close to India by the way...). In my culture the boy can be a good for nothing bum and the girl they end up with is expected to be nothing less than beautiful, smart, educated and good at housework. It is very frustrating!!
ReplyDeleteLook, I don't care I sincerely like that hat. Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything else on that page and over the years have grown up and improved on major points of myself... but the fedorah stays and not ironically either... Maybe I'll just wear it less... kinda think of it, its time I faced the fact that I'll never be a member of the Rat Pack.
ReplyDeleteThank you friendly feminist... I know a hobo up the street who will love this.
Isnt this catch 22 though?, if a guy acts like this, he ceases to be a nice guy.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly the point. You can't claim to be a nice guy when you hold views that are inherently misogynistic (and then act accordingly). Respect and genuine kindness aren't much to ask of people, but I do realize that not everyone is perfect, and not everyone learns from mistakes. There's not much you can do about that though. So.
DeleteTo the author:
ReplyDeleteΥοu tell guys that they should fell sad when they get rejected?
Do you get an evil joy when you make guys sad?
Well guys, when you get rejected you shouldn't feel sad, as this lady here tells you to do, nor feel anger.
You should feel NOTHING. Just move on. There are plenty of fish.
"Nice guys" finish last. Stop being a nice guy and be like Tyler Durden. LOL.
I'm not telling guys to feel anything when they're rejected, this is just a friendly reminder that when someone rejects you, turning into a horrid vindictive asshole will get you nowhere. It's fine to feel sad or angry, just don't go on to say that all women are sluts/whores/bitches because one woman doesn't want to date you.
DeleteAnd no I don't get an evil joy when I make guys sad. I feel awful when I have to reject someone because I know how shitty it feels. But I move on. It's life. And the entire world doesn't revolve me. "Nice guys" don't seem to realize this.
I am talking about that little "funny" comic scetch that pictures a sad boy and you saying
ReplyDelete"THIS IS OK"
"How guys should react when they get friendzoned"
Feel nor anger, nor sadness, guys, just move on.
oh by the way, I agree with what you say about "nice guys".
DeleteThey just pretend to be "nice guys" when in truth they aren't such nice guys.
"Just moving on"...is not part of the Friendzone dynamic.
DeleteIf a guy is rejected romantically, moves on and chooses not to stay in contact with the woman, then he's not in the Friendzone at all.
It's the guy who is rejected romantically, and chooses to stay in contact that is in the FZ.
I would ask the women posting here what would motivate you to stay in close contact/friendship with a guy you're not sexually attracted to, but you KNOW wants to sleep with you?
That's happened to me once and I'm not really in contact with him anymore. Then again, we were never close in the first place. If someone's proven himself to be a really good friend to me and could get past the fact that I have no romantic interest in him, why not keep him? If he starts being a dick about it, however, I wouldn't want to keep him as a friend. I've been in a situation where I was madly in love with a close friend, and he knew it, but we stayed friends anyway. We even flirted jokingly! After a while the love/infatuation dissipated and we were cool. It really depends on state of the friendship.
Delete"Why not keep him?"
DeleteA person has openly expressed his attraction to you. You reject his advances. Everything's fine so far, except now you've given him a "homework assignment." He has to get over his attraction to you so that he can continue to be in your presence for whatever benefit you gain from it?
Even the language you use...."if someone's proven himself to be a really good friend to me", as though your friendship is something you reward people with based upon test scoring, goal achievement or favored judgement via subjective criteria. How does something that has to be "earned" instead of freely given an equal relationship?
IMHO, that's why "just moving on" seems to be a wiser course of action, because in reality...that's what the "non-Nice Guys", who seem to be the most respected males on the planet to feminists, most frequently do.
--Cobra
Not really sure where you're getting that idea. I'm not saying he's not "worthy" of being in my presence if he's attracted to me...? Would you stay friends with someone if they started getting all bitter with you because you don't reciprocate their feelings? I don't know you, but I'm assuming not. I really wouldn't appreciate it if someone I thought was a genuinely good friend pulled a whole 180 if I rejected his romantic advances. If the relationship becomes toxic and unpleasant, it makes sense to cut the person out of your life.
DeleteAnd I'm the type of person that's hard to become close friends with which will explain my "language" in that quote you used. I have huge trust issues and always expect the worst with people so yeah, you have to prove to me that you're a legit friend and not some asshole that never really cared about me. I mean of course it'll go both ways, I'll be a good friend and all. I probably should have said "if we have a solid friendship" instead. My bad. Also, I'm talking about close long-term friendship, not a casual friendship (totally different). Apologies for the confusion.
You are right that moving on is the best course of action. It's easier for everyone. But this post isn't about "non-Nice Guys", it's about "Nice Guys" and why the so-called "friendzone" is bullshit and should abolished. I wrote this thing months ago so I'm not sure why it's still getting comments but whatever.
Why is this just a male issue? Aren't women just as incensed when they are "there" for a guy as a friend, but secretly in love with them? Aren't they just as likely to say, "Why is he choosing THAT bitch over me, when I've been the one who's there for him all this time."
ReplyDeleteOf course women do that, even I've done that, but women are much less likely to sit on blogs and complain and whine about how all men are gross pigs and nice girls finish last. In general, we don't have ridiculously high standards and expectations. Women don't vilify men for rejecting them, either. This is mostly a male issue because it's rooted in patriarchal ideas and misogyny (which I explained in the post).
DeleteI would question that assumption that women are less likely to be on blogs complaining and whining about how all men are gross pigs. I've seen my fair share of women online and off who appear misandristic and vilify men as moronic and ruled by their sex drives alone. Many women write men off as misogynistic pigs when they are rejected. However, that is just my observation. If you have statistical evidence of this phenomena I would be willing to study it. It would certainly be something we would want to address with our children to be sure that they are aware of the patriarchal "background noise" we all grow up with. However, much of your post seems to be assumptions about the numbers of men vs the number of women who do this without any hard evidence. This many be less an issue of patriarchal self-entitlement and more an issue of beings of all gender forms being jack asses when they are rejected. I'm guessing many more people react the way they should and just cry themselves to sleep.
DeleteThis whole blog was for a (high) school project and all the posts were written on a tight deadline so I just didn't have time to dig around. I've never personally met any women who write off all men as pigs for not wanting to date them although I do come across radfem blogs that often make misandristic statements but those are a minority and need to just be ignored (I despise radfems and therefore avoid them). I come across "nice guys" more often though, especially on Facebook and Tumblr. Pretty much all of the posts on this blog are based on my own experience and what I've learned over a period of two years. It's a bit difficult to get hard evidence on a topic like this and you're right that I am assuming. My mistake.
DeleteI say it's an issue of patriarchal self-entitlement because generally, boys are brought up to believe that they deserve ~the best~ mate, as if women are objects/prizes to be won. However, I agree that you don't have to be a misogynist to feel self-entitled. It happens to young girls, too, with the whole prince charming thing in media targeted toward kids. These are way bigger issues though. "Nice guys" are just a nuisance.
I...LOVE this article. 200% truth. I hate those delusional "nice guys", they need to be knocked off of their delusional pedestals..
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCarli_V, it might seem like we disagree more than we agree but that's not the case. It's just no fun to write, "Oh! I agree!" Here goes.
ReplyDeleteYou write, "I'll admit that everything Zoey did wasn't exactly A-Okay." Why did you chose that limiting adverb "exactly?" What Zoey did is wrong and what Toby did was foolish.
You contine, "The friendzone itself isn't a bad thing. The friendzone just is," yet in the comments you write, "the so-called "friendzone" is bullshit and should be abolished." These seem to contradict themselves. I have found myself in the friendzone and women who have liked me have found themselves there to. I don't recommend it. I believe that anyone in the friendzone would be wise to downgrade the relationship to friendly acquaintance and go from there. That is what I have done, except on two occasions when the women started a relationship with friends of mine and then it wasn't possible. As for women who liked me, I downgraded the relationship for them for their own sake. Being rejected is painful, often made all the more so when you hang around this person. Pain makes us wiser (eventually) but it can make us foolish (more immediately). If the person who is interested in you can't see their way clearly due to pain, then the compassionate thing is to see their way clearly for them and limit contact. Now, like you, I would take issue with a woman who becomes insulting, though if it happened only for short time I'm inclined to chalk that up to the pain talking and not the mind so I would let that go. However, I have no problems if a woman decided to end the friendship altogether because it brings her pain if she sees me. As long as she maintains a civil tongue, I'll miss her as a friend but I wish her all the best. Most men I know do not personally insult women who have rejected them. Any anger or bitterness is directed at the situation, not the woman. By the way, I've also seen what some men do to women in their friendzone, using them for sex, and I find it deplorable.
You say you've never met any female personally who sits and whines how men are pigs. Well, you did say this was a high school project so I'm going to assume you're young. As one who has lived more years, I have personally met women who whine about how men are pigs. I chalk it up to the heartache talking more than the head. I agree with you that the friendzone / nice guy issue is more a male issue, and as a teacher I try my best to guide young boys into manhood by guiding them away from the behavior you mention in your article. Perhaps, Carli_V, when you do encounter women who decry men as pigs (and if you haven't yet, I think you will as you get older), then you can do likewise.
You also write, "I'd suggest just moving on and lowering your standards a bit so they're a little more realistic attainable. The problem is that guys go after girls that are too good for them or too different from them..." I understand what you're saying and agree with it to an extent, but a limiting adjective might have been appropriate here ("some" guys). Furthermore, "too good for them" might not be the best choice of words though I'm darned if I can think of a better one at this time. Oh well. By the way, the young man who rejected you, did you say to yourself, "He's too good for me. My standards are unrealistic?" I've heard young girls being told they too "deserve the best mate."
Lastly, you write, "I wrote this thing months ago so I'm not sure why it's still getting comments but whatever." To me, this is a bit like Jefferson saying, "Golly! The Declaration of Independence? That old thing? I wrote that centuries ago but people are still talking about it. Whatever." Now, don't let that go to your head, Carli_V. However, I say that because you should be flattered people are still talking about your article. It's interesting and engaging.
You know what, I almost ignored this, but then I opened the email. It's so long and thoughtful that I'd feel like crap if I ignored you. In my defense, this article is old. Very old. Old as balls. But okay. We're doing this.
DeleteIn regards to my choice of words, that's just the way I talk. This article is a conversational thinkpiece, not a formal university essay. Everyone obviously got the gist of what I was saying so I don't see why my word choice is even an issue, even if it wasn't the best. Zoey should've just outright said "I'm not interested" instead of kind of stringing him along like that. It was plain wrong, I agree.
For what I said about the friendzone: context is the key here. Before, I was talking about the -concept- of the friendzone (unrequited love), not what vindictive guys have turned it into, which is what I'm talking about in the latter statement. I agree with everything you say after that point. A guy ended up liking me but I didn't like him, and we weren't even really friends in the first place, so I just ignored him until he stopped texting me. (All he would say was "hey" every once in a while so it's not like I was stepping on his heart or anything.) And yes, using people for sex is damn gross.
I myself have complained about boys in general so many times, but only in moments of extreme irritation or bitterness. I don't genuinely believe that all guys are assholes, it's just that most guys I've talked to personally have turned out to be assholes. That's just my life. Some people just have no luck with whatever gender they're attracted to, and I'm one of them, but I still have a bit of hope. I avoid generalizing and I try to get other people to as well. The best way to prevent this behaviour is to call it out and try to change people's perspectives.
You're right, I should have put "good" in quotation marks. Just picture in your mind a "nerd" type trying to win the affection of a "cheerleader" type like in a cheesy teen sitcom. That's what I meant there. I just think it's wiser to go for someone who you might actually be able to share an emotional and mental bond with. That's more important to me than picking "the best" girl/guy/person who doesn't fall into the gender binary. If you know what I mean. And no, I didn't think that, we were really close friends so we were way beyond that shallow stuff. It's not that he was "too good", it just wouldn't have worked because he lives on the other side of the country and he's gay. That was just me being stupid and hormonal. My standards are quite reasonable and go along with what's socially expected of people in general anyway.
Okay now you're comparing something an 18-year-old girl rambled about for school to an important political document that gave western society the right to and value of revolution and granted America independence from Britain. It's just irritating because I'm completely detached from this blog and the FZ is kind of a dead issue to me now. This is also the only post on my whole blog that's getting any attention so it's like the FZ is all anyone even cares about, which is disappointing. And I'm just socially lazy. I didn't even want to make this thing in the first place!
But that's the thing about the internet. The internet is eternal. Whatever you put there is there forever. I just wasn't expecting to get this much feedback. Thanks for you response, though.
Thanks for reading my comments and replying to them, Carli_V. Old as balls? Well, when I was your age, I vowed never to say, "When I was your age." I've clearly broken that vow, haven't I? When I was your age I felt anything a month or two old was, well, old. I see things differently now.
ReplyDeleteI'm not really comparing your work to Jefferson's D of I (though it's no shame to lose to the D of I). I'm simply saying that people sometimes are quite surprised by what becomes their opus magnum. Bach didn't care for Cantata no. 147 while he lived, but look at it now! It's performed and beloved all over the world. Martin Luther didn't expect his 95 Theses to start a firestorm when he nailed them to the door, but by heavens they did! No, this article isn't the D of I or Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring or the 95 Theses, but it's engaging, thoughtful, and seems to have sparked a great deal of interest. And why shouldn't it? Male / female relations are so hardwired into us that I'm not at all surprised your article has received the attention is has.
I guess I should have asked have you ever had to lower your standards, if not with your gay friend then with anyone? Did you ever say about anyone, "He's too good for me?" or "He's out of my league?" I do understand what you are getting at, that people (you said "guys" but neglected to say "gals") set their sights on someone out of their league (I dislike that term but I can't think of a better one right now so I'm using it for the sake of convenience). I can't speak much for women because I'm not one, but I can tell you it's quite difficult for a man to mentally switch leagues. If anything, he does have to get an erection at some point in his mate's presence. Besides, the heart wants what it wants, but equally important, it doesn't want what it doesn't want. Believe me when I say that this is problematic for men. You rightly acknowledge that you can't make anyone love you. I add to this; most men can't *make* themselves love a woman.It just happens or it doesn't. This, by the way, I very much consider no blessing. It's a burden. I might advise the "nerd" guy or gal in your scenario to play the field, but consider doing whatever possible to increase his or her erotic capital.
I understand this article wasn't a university style paper. However, words we chose extemporaneously often point the way to how we feel much more so than words that are carefully chosen. I could be wrong, but your choice of the words "not exactly A-Okay" might show a certain bias you have. We all have biases, myself included.
I'm sorry that most men you have spoken to have turned out to be assholes. Most men I've spoken to have not turned out to be assholes. Most women I've spoken to have not turned out to be bitches either. My late father wasn't an asshole. My brother is more of an idiot than an asshole. My male coworkers aren't assholes. My male friends aren't assholes (though some had to grow out of being assholes...and some or more intelligent than others). I try not to be an asshole.
Perhaps you could point me in the direction of another article you've written, Carli, either on this blog site or another. An article that you feel is more important to you. I might enjoy reading it.
Thanks for your attention.
Okay, I'll give you that. It does make sense, as the FZ is something that a lot of people feel strongly about. I'm just so used to feeling invisible all the time that I forget that I do have an audience. Guess this article is what got their attention. Despite there being other issues that I think could use more passionate people to fight against, but oh well, can't tell people where to direct their passion.
DeleteYes, I have had to lower my standards. Yes, I've said "he's too good me" hundreds of times. Even before I lowered my standards attractive people intimidated me so much I never even tried to talk to them. It's better to save myself the inevitable disappointment. My life's already full of that, I really don't need more. And yes, the heart wants what it wants, but the heart is also irrational. It's the same for women, too, believe me. But that's when you have to start using your brain and try to be a little more self-aware, which can be difficult for some people. You can still try, I mean if you've got the confidence you might as well, I'm just saying you gotta keep your head and not start irrationally hating a whole gender.
My word choice: yes I was biased at the time. This whole blog is biased in favour of women because I was still a bit immature when I made it. I've grown up a lot since I wrote this and realize now that women are just as capable of being dicks as men are, and that does not make me a bad feminist as people on Tumblr had me thinking.
There are some really good and intelligent guys in my life, but they are scarce. There are very few guys that don't have giant glaring flaws that I just can't get over. A lot of people, men and women, have internalized a lot of bad stuff so say they often say things that completely change my opinion of them and I don't like them anymore. It's really annoying. I think it just depends on what sort of things you judge people on and what's important to you personally that affects whether you can classify someone as an "asshole".
Here's my article on MRAs: http://thefriendlyfem.blogspot.ca/2013/03/mens-rights.html I'm astounded that this didn't spark any controversy whatsoever. I'm happy, sure, but still very surprised that I didn't get attacked or even questioned. Odd, but I am not complaining. And here's my article on rape culture: http://thefriendlyfem.blogspot.ca/2013/03/rape-culture.html which I expected to get a little more feedback on as it was quite topical when I wrote it.